Washington Week full episode, July 22, 2022

YAMICHE ALCINDOR, PBS MODERATOR, WASHINGTON WEEK: Trump outtakes, Bannon convicted, and Joe Biden gets COVID.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: I donút want to say the election is over.

ALCINDOR (voice-over): January 6 Committee holds another hearing, revealing never before seen video.

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): President Trump did not fail to act during the 187 minutes.

He chose not to act.

ALCINDOR: Lawmakers focus on why President Trump did not call off the mob during the Capitol attack.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Donald Trump knows that millions of Americans who supported him would stand up and defend our nation were threatened.

And on January 6, Donald Trump turned their love of country into a weapon against our Capitol and our Constitution.

ALCINDOR: And condemn his actions.

Plus -- JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But Iúm doing well, getting a lot of work done.

Itús going to be okay.

ALCINDOR: President Biden, the most powerful and protected a man in America, tests positive for COVID-19.

What his diagnosis means for the country and what it says of the virusú unrelenting threat.

Next.

(BREAK) ANNOUNCER: Once again from Washington, moderator Yamiche Alcindor.

ALCINDOR: Good evening and welcome to "Washington Week".

This was another busy week full of news.

During a Thursday night public hearing, the January 6 Committee when in deep on 187 minutes.

Lawmakers say thatús the time between when former President Donald Trump ended his speech on the Mall and when he told his supporters attacking the capital to go home.

According to the committee, Trump chose not to act as part of a deliberate plan to delay certifying the vote and lawmakers say he only told the rioters to go home after it was clear to him that they failed to stop the proceedings.

During the event, there was also new video of outtakes -- thatús right -- outtakes of prerecorded speech given by former President Trump given after the attack.

It showed his reluctance to condemn the mob and how his daughter Ivanka Trump coached him through the remarks.

TRUMP: But this election is now over.

Congress has certified the results.

I donút want to say the election is over.

I just want to say Congress has certified the results, without saying the election is over, okay?

IVANKA TRUMP, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISOR: Now, Congress has certified.

TRUMP: Yeah, right.

I didnút say over.

Let me see -- go to the paragraph before.

ALCINDOR: Committee also revealed that Secret Service agents at the Capitol thought they might be killed.

WHITE HOUSE SECURITY OFFICIAL: The members of the VP detail at this time were starting to fear for their own lives.

So, it was disturbing.

There were calls to say goodbye to family members, so on and so forth.

ALCINDOR: Two former White House officials also testified about why they resigned on January 6.

This also comes, of course, as Steve Bannon, which is another big story, a former Trump advisor was found guilty of contempt of Congress for refusing to comply with a subpoena from the January 6 committee.

He now faces up to two years in prison.

So, when I told you we had a busy week, we really meant a busy week.

So, joining us to discuss this and more, Hallie Jackson, senior Washington correspondent for NBC News and NBC News Now anchor, someone I spent a lot with in the last couple of weeks.

We also have Dan Balz here in the studio, chief correspondent for "The Washington Post".

And, of course, our dear friend, Nikole Killion, congressional correspondent for CBS News.

Thank you so much all of you for being here.

Nikole, I have to start with you.

You are on the beat, that is sort of the central place or we are looking right now.

I wonder, when you think about sort of Thursdayús hearing in particular, with lawmakers trying to really dig in on what in the world president was doing during the Capitol attack, what sticks out most to you and when you think about just sort of what lawmakers are trying to telegraph?

NIKOLE KILLION, CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CBS NEWS: Well, really, the committee has been building up to this moment from day one.

I mean, since the committee has been formed, one of the key things from the outset they wanted to focus on were those 187 minutes.

What was the president doing during that time?

We finally got to see minute by minute in their view some of the evidence they were able to uncover.

I think one of the more remarkable things was that you showed at the top of show, some of those outtakes of the former president having to rework his script.

You know, I talked to Elaine Luria who led this panel and she talked about how, you know, the former president has always been so congenial.

You know, TV is his thing.

He was this big reality start and yet, you know, he couldnút get the words out, right?

So, you know, her objective was to allow viewers at home to draw their own conclusions.

But look, there was a lot that came out of this from the tapes were reheard for the first time about the danger that the former vice president detail based.

We were aware of the chance to hang Mike Pence.

And weúve seen that evacuation video.

But, again, to hear the fact that some of these people were calling their families, I mean, it reminded you of 9/11 where people were calling home.

So, from that standpoint, look, there were many new revelations and I think from here, the committee is simply looking to continue this investigation because they continue to get more evidence and more to come as they continue hearings in the fall.

ALCINDOR: Well, thereús a lot to discuss and you broke a lot of it down so well.

Hallie, of course, Nicole was talking about outtakes.

It was the moment where a lot of my sources literally gasped, right?

It was the moment where we saw the reality TV president that we all covered together, stumbling through not being able to say, not wanting to say that the election was over, not wanting to say that the people who broke in to the Capitol just a day before should be held responsible for what they were doing.

I wonder what you make of the significance of those outtakes and what it tells us about the former presidentús frame of mind?

HALLIE JACKSON, NBC NEWS SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I have to tell you, Yamiche, and we were sitting on set when this was happening, right?

The committee was planned outtakes.

It was a gasp-worthy moment.

I think itús objectively safe to say that.

That said, it wasnút altogether shocking that former President Trump would still, given everything that weúve seen in the many, many months that it happened that past this January 6 would be denying, right, the legitimate election results after.

I think what the committee effectively was able to do here was by juxtaposing the violence at the Capitol, showing this footage of the rioters, showing the footage that we hadnút seen before, the Secret Service radio calls that were happening, you could hear how frantic it sounded, how under duress they were and the testimony from the White House security official who was listening into these radio calls and suggesting that perhaps the vice president would have been compromised.

I mean, step back and think about that.

Juxtaposing that to less than 20 four hours later, former President Trump being unable to get out the words was significant.

For your sources, you said that was a key moment.

Can I tell you what another key moment was for somebody that I talked to?

And thatús something thatús not getting a ton of attention, but at the end of the hearing, when as Nikole mentioned, Congresswoman Elaine Luria who was leading part of the hearing that, she referenced the first responders who were defending the Capitol that day.

And I think itús important to talk about that because, remember, there are people behind the video that we see and this footage that we see.

And this huge, political and historic story that weúre covering here, there are people who died, there are people whose lives will never be the same, there are people who are suffering from trauma.

And when Congresswoman Luria said that, you saw shot of the officers sitting in the front row.

One of them, Officer Harry Dunn, who I talk too late last night and he said the moment that stuck with him, the thing that he is still rattled by, was what you referenced, that Secret Service testimony from the White House official, the people were calling their families to say goodbye.

That shook Officer Dunn.

And he had told me beforehand, too, he was really bracing for the emotional impact because it spoke to the intensity and the seriousness of this moment, Yamiche.

ALCINDOR: Thatús -- I mean, that is really a great way to really think about this and such a smart thing to point out.

That was such I think a chilling moment.

Dan, I want to come to you because there was another striking moment that stuck to you and it was about what President Trump was tweeting during the Capitol attack, that 2:24 tweet -- 2:24 p.m. tweet where literally former Vice President Mike Pence is running through the Capitol, being evacuated and Trump is criticizing him publicly.

Why did that stick out to you?

And what did you want to write about it this week?

DAN BALZ, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, THE WASHINGTON POST: I tell you because we know this hearing was billed as what President Trump did not do for the 187 minutes.

But what struck me and particularly with what tweet was what he did do.

I mean, it wasnút that he simply sat passively the entire time.

He did things and that tweet is symbolic of the kind of belligerence that he had over what was going on.

Hereús a moment when everyone around him in the White House believes that he should walked down the briefing room and make a statement to the national audience and tell the people rioting on the Capitol grounds to go home.

Instead, he sends a tweet attacking his own vice president, calling him a coward, in essence, putting gasoline on this fire that is already raging.

And it just was striking to me how indifferent he was to not just the safety of his vice president, but the threat that was underway at the Capitol.

ALCINDOR: It -- you know, it was absolutely striking.

There is so much in this hearing.

I want to focus back on to the Secret Service, these details about people calling their family.

Hallie talked really deeply about them.

What are you hearing from lawmakers on Capitol Hill?

Because youúre obviously walking the halls where these people were saying, I might have to call my family because I might never see them again.

KILLION: Well, I mean, thereús that and thereús also this issue of these deleted text messages, right, that the committee is trying to get ahold of.

And so, you know, that we continue to see more developments on that front, and I think many on the committee are very frustrated that they cannot get the information they need.

There is a lot with respect to the Secret Service.

I mean, itús not just this protection element, but itús also, you know, that whole story we heard from Cassidy Hutchinson a few weeks back where there was an altercation with the former president and his detail.

And so, we heard last night more about that from the retired police sergeant that was interesting in terms of them broadcasting some of his testimony.

And so, we know that some members of the detail may have retained private counsel.

So, look, you know, there are lot of legs to this story, and that is why you heard the committee say last night we are not done, our work is continuing in August before we resume with these hearings in September.

ALCINDOR: Saying it has a lot of legs is definitely a good way to put it because, Hallie, we are continuing to see former President Trump attacking this committee.

Just this week, we heard that he was calling Wisconsin officials trying to get them to overturn their election results.

All of this is happening as the hearing showed that Donald Trump was they say spent time calling senators, weúre not sure which senators, while Rudy Giuliani was leaving messages for senators saying, hey, you should try to slow down this process even more.

I wonder if you could connect those -- what was happening on January 6 to what we know is happening in real time?

JACKSON: Such a great point made then by the way the investigation in Georgia that is happening also.

There are so many parts that are disparate but connected.

It has to be one would think the focus or part of what the committee or at least a part of what the committee is going to talk about come September, because think about what theyúve done, Yamiche, over the last couple of months here, right, since early June when these hearings started.

They very clearly laid an arc, right?

They wanted to make sure and they have talked about this.

Members talked about it with me.

They talked about it with you and others, that they wanted to make sure they were crafting something that would be compelling to people as they lay down an accurate record of history, right?

Thereús a lot of questions about the accountability factor, what happens with the Justice Department from here, but for these initially seven then eight hearings, it was a record of history, right?

To come back in September and yes, Vice Chair Liz Cheney has said the dam has begun to break, there are more testimonies, active information coming in to them.

But for them to come back in September to hold more hearings, as they are going to do, youúve got to think that there is a bar they want to try to hit, right, with the way that they have conducted these hearings so far.

And I think that what you are talking about with these phone calls that former President Trump is continuing to make to, you know, people in Wisconsin, with the Fulton County district attorney is continuing to uncover, the testimony we expect to hear from Rudy Giuliani that these are going to be part and parcel of some of the threads that the January 6 will try to pull on, Yamiche.

And I will just say, too, you know, as we talk about this sort of big picture, Donald Trump is engaging in this, right?

Donald Trump is watching this.

We know heús watching this.

We know what channel he is watching this on because he was tweeting, you know, Truth Socializing I should say, calling (ph) about one of those channelús anchors, calling, you know, Liz Cheney as sanctimonious loser.

So, he is in some degree engaging in this.

There is a political component here, too, that is not going away, especially as we get closer to the midterms.

ALCINDOR: This political component is clearly not going away and we know that, Dan, because just today, we had a new development which is that Steve Bannon was found guilty of failing to comply with subpoena from Congress.

I wonder what you make of the political significance of that, but also, of course, of these significance of that to the committeeús work because itús clear they are taking this seriously.

BALZ: They are taking it very seriously and they were quick to respond to that conviction to say that this is -- this is an indication of the seriousness with which we are approaching this job.

This was in many ways an open and shut case.

It was clear when the trial started that he was likely to be convicted, in part because of some of the choices the judge had made.

But it is significant.

It says if you defy this committee, you run the risk of going to jail.

I suspect we have not heard last of Steve Bannon from this committee as they continue to dig in and look at other aspects of it.

ALCINDOR: And if I could give you a follow up question here, thereús a lot of pressure being put on the DOJ because a lot of Democrats are looking that way and saying, okay, well, whatús the DOJ going to do now?

What do you make of sort of the pressure that Merrick Garland, Attorney General Merrick Garland is facing in the sort of potential that criminal referrals could be handed down from the DOJ?

BALZ: It seems to me that there are two major objectives of January 6 committee.

One, is to ratchet up the pressure on Merrick Garland to look at this as seriously as possible.

Heús got a very, very difficult decision and we donút have to go into all of the details of that, but it is clear that this is a fraught decision for him, and whatever, whatever way he decides will touch off a firestorm.

So, but thatús one element of it.

The case they have laid which is not necessarily a case that you would bring strictly in this way in a courtroom, they would face a different challenge, through the Justice Department if they do, in fact, indict the president.

But they have laid out so much evidence about the former president that it is forcing, I think, the Justice Department to think about whether they will take that in essence fateful step.

I think the other goal was from what Liz Cheney had to say last night.

And that is, given the choices that this president made on January 6, should he ever again be allowed to hold a position of authority in the government.

And thatús a political question, and almost no matter what happens with the Justice Department, that is a question that will go before the voters probably in 2024 if he runs.

ALCINDOR: Certainly.

And, Nikole, when we think about the political implications here, I -- we have to go back to something that Hallie mentioned which is that Liz Cheney said the dam has broken.

There are going to be more hearings, plural -- for those at home, thatús with an S -- in September.

Talk a bit about what lawmakers think they want to learn, what we know about this new information, new witnesses coming forward, but the unanswered questions they want to get at.

KILLION: Well, I do want to just piggyback off of Danús point real quick just because one of my colleagues at CBS, Jeff Pegues, did ask the attorney general this week about potentially prosecuting Trump and he replied, saying no one is above the law.

Now, that doesnút necessarily, you know, mean heús going to act.

But I do think -- ALCINDOR: It was notable when he said that.

So, thanks for bringing that up.

KILLION: Absolutely.

But, you know, look, in terms of whatús next, we knew that the committee would likely hold more hearings.

At minimum they have to complete a report, likely an interim report sometime in September so they want to use at least one hearing to try to focus on that in terms of outlining key findings and then they intend to put out a more comprehensive report perhaps later this year.

Chairman Bennie Thompson and others have indicated that they are not making the midterms a factor in terms of when they put that information out.

But as we all us know in politics, you know, weúre very familiar with the October surprise.

So, who knows what the committee has up its sleeve.

But, again, as they get more information, they have said that they could hold more hearings simply based on the new information they find.

Already, we know with respect to the Secret Service, thatús not off the table in terms of a future hearing.

So, again, weúll have to see.

ALCINDOR: Yeah.

When you said Secret Service and October surprise, my head started spinning.

Also think about the other story that happened this week, because the big other story is this, the president of the United States, President Biden, has COVID-19.

According to the White House, his symptoms are mild and he is working in quarantine from residence.

You see those pictures of him working form home essentially.

Still, he is a 79-year-old man.

That means even though he is vaccinated and twice boosted, he is in a high-risk group for severe illness.

To talk more about this, weúre joined by Yasmeen Abutaleb, national reporter for "The Washington Post".

Yasmeen, as soon as I heard the president had COVID, I was like, please someone call Yasmeen, we need her on the show.

So, Iúm just going to let you have it.

Talk to us a little bit about how the president is feeling, what we know about sort of his - - the latest about his condition, but also sort of what youúve been hearing from your sources, health sources, about the way forward for him?

YASMEEN ABUTALEB, WASHINGTON POST: So, it seems like, fortunately, the president is doing fairly well and seems to have a mild case of COVID.

His doctor has put out two letters.

The White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre and the White House coronavirus response coordinator Ashish Jha have done two pretty extensive briefings about how he is doing and his symptoms.

So, so far, he seems to have a cough, a runny nose, some fatigue.

His temperature went up a little bit but now seems to be normal.

And importantly, his oxygen, his heart rate are all normal.

And so, speaking with doctors, you know, they said the thing you would look for with someone like the president who is 79 or really anyone who develops COVID is whether they start developing shortness.

It doesnút seem thatús happened to the president and the White House has gone to pretty extensive lengths to show that heús fine and heús working and he has continued to work through his infection.

He had a bit of hoarse voice today when he appeared for a public event.

But, otherwise, you know, I think itús not that surprising that he would have gotten COVID especially given his travel schedule recently, the number of public events he has done.

He is a glad-handing politician with lots of back slabs and hugging.

And so, you know, the White House had been preparing for this for a matter of months.

ALCINDOR: Yasmeen, I would ask you something else which is as he is the most powerful man in America you could say, someone who is very protected, he is joining millions of other Americans who now have COVID.

I wonder if you could talk about the overall threat to the country and what that means for the least among us, the most vulnerable, because that continues, at least based on my reading to be people of color, poor people, people who canút work from home.

ABUTALEB: Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, thatús a great point, Yamiche.

I mean, the president is the most protected person in the country.

And, you know, the White House had pretty extensive safety protocols in place to protect him which included anyone who met with him indoors had to mask, very regular testing, and then, of course, they caught his infection early.

So, he got access to the antiviral Paxlovid early, which definitely helps.

And I think it highlights that BA.5 has taken over the country.

The reported cases are a little over 100,000, but experts think itús up to 10 times, you know, a million or more cases a day, just given how itús rampantly spreading right now.

This is the most contagious and transmissible variant that we have seen.

And I think the fact that the president, with all of the protections he has in place, still getting COVID just reflects the challenge that weúre all facing right now.

You know, most people have had it at this point.

I think about 70 percent of the country has had a COVID infection at this point.

The majority of the country is vaccinated and still this variant has shown a remarkable ability to escape immunity that is afforded by vaccinations or previous infection.

And so, I think itús a reflection of how difficult it is for the country to get a handle on the virus, you know, 2-1/2 years in.

And like you said, you know, the president is likely to use the infection to say, look, we want everyone to have access to the tools the president has access that have kept his mild, boosters.

Theyúre free and available, Paxlovid.

But the reality is in a lot of communities, communities of color and poor communities, its not as easy to get access to these tools especially the antivirals.

ALCINDOR: Such a good point.

And, Hallie, in the minute that we have left here, I want to come to you.

There is a new poll this week, the most recent PBS NewsHour/Marist/NPR poll shows that President Bidenús approval rating has been at the lowest since his presidency.

Obviously, the president wants to be out on the road, Hallie, wanting to be talking about his agenda, but now he is stuck indoors.

How might this just impact sort of politically where he wants to be?

JACKSON: The White House hopes very little, Yamiche, because they have been talking now for weeks about the idea that once we hit this point of the summer, once he gets through these overseas trips, he would be out on the road, heúd be hustling ahead of the midterms, right?

I mean, that was something that was previewed for a long time.

So, to have the president sort of isolated in the White House, they are trying to do as much as they came to show he is still working.

They released photos.

Theyúre talking about the calls he is making.

Theyúre trying, they say, to be transparent.

I think thatús a question.

I think thatús something that and a lot of reporters will be standing on top of, to make sure theyúre getting information from the White House in a timely way.

But, this is not -- listen, it is the summer.

This isnút September.

This isnút October.

So, itús not like the window is closing.

I think we often see that Americans engagement especially with the midterms picks up after Labor Day, for example.

So, I think if the White House is going to be eager to get him on the road, but they also understand that they need to make sure they are following the CDC guidelines because they have to not only talk the talk but walk the walk here as it relates to how that president is going to handle this.

Youúve seen Dr. Biden, for example, staying in Wilmington, sheús staying in Delaware, I should say, out of the White House, out of the way of the president.

Theyúre really trying to be modeling here, some behavior that they want to see the rest of the American states.

ALCINDOR: Yeah.

And, Dana, in the last 30 seconds, its a lot different thinking about what Hallie is talking about, sort of the protocols that the Biden administration is taking versus what we saw under the Trump administration, different times because there were no vaccines.

But just talk a bit about that.

BALZ: Well, I think thatús the major difference we see.

When President Trump got COVID, there were no vaccinations.

He was in quite bad shape as we later learned.

The White House is trying to use this as a teaching moment.

That we have these tools available and we ought to begin to try to use them, and those who have not taken advantage ought to do so.

ALCINDOR: Well, I will say, I hope that President Biden has a safe and quick recovery.

I know so many people that have dealt with COVID-19.

So, I hope that he feels better.

So, thank you so much to all of us, to all of you at home for watching.

And thank you to the panelists for joining us and for sharing your reporting.

Dan, Nikole and Hallie and I will continue our conversation on the January 6 hearings and the criminal investigation into the missing Secret Service text messages on "The Washington Week Extra".

Fight it on our website, Facebook and YouTube.

And before we go, tune in to "PBS News Weekend" tomorrow for anchor Geoff Bennettús exclusive interview with Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg.

Thank you all for joining us.

Goodnight from Washington.